My test on using a push swing with USE rules

[hammers1man]

Mar 11, 2020 23:54:24 GMT ray said:

Same. I don’t want to lose anyone we have. I think we all play with the right intent. I can’t see anyone at home being upset about their place on our leaderboard, the joy is in the golf not the result. I enjoy others playing well almost as much as when I do - that was never the case at TGCT.

This is exactly how I feel Ray, to me this is about the experience I want to play the most realistic sim golf we can. I really enjoy playing with the ghosts I play with, was really rewarding to me seeing polekatt/josia long game really improve and was cheering on his great shots. We are playing a friendly competition here but I love seeing other members up their game and play great shots. I have even tried to save my fellow members ghost's shots but the game is screwed up there it doesn't show the shot correctly.
I am a bit upset with this whole push shot debate tbh, Anders who has put in a lot of time for this society and also contributed some great courses here has decided to leave because he disagrees that this is an exploit and doesn't feel comfortable playing here because other members might see his style of play as cheating.
Personally I am on his side on this, I have watched booze's videos which he replicates roughly the same swing not an inconsistent one . I have tested this swing and remember paddyjk19 hit his worst ever USE score trying it, I saw this as no easy exploit that has been suggested and I had much more consistency trying to hit in the blue zone actually. That's my opinion and I respect those that think differently. From a sim point of view how many golfers including pro's swing on a true swing plane, most pro's are in to out and most amateurs out to in.
I am going to put a poll up as we make decisions here as a community on how this society should play this game, please vote so we can get the society's as a whole input on this. Thanks

[Deleted]

We had a separate discussion on the admin thread. This is based on my experience trying the push/pull swing. Personally, I will always strive for a straight back and straight through swing. It hardly works as planned. I just want to express my personal opinion and this is what I had to say on the admin thread. It may be too little too late,


"I have no intention of keeping this debate going. I did as Anders asked and played a round on Celtic Manor with R1 conditions. I did not see enough consistency to call this an exploit. My final score for the round was Even par. Which is actually a stroke or two less that when I played yesterday, using my normal swing and R1 conditions. The way I played was to account for my lie and wind first. Then move the aim to the right or left of the target approximately 6-10 ft. Then I would pull straight back on the thumbstick and when going towards the top of the swing, I would try for a 45 degree angle offline. It was very inconsistent and there seemed to be a very small window directly at 45 degrees where the ball would go mostly straight. Anything more or less that 45 degrees would produce an inconsistent wild shot. Tempo played a huge part in ball path as well. There may be an argument that using this swing takes one side of the course out of play. I am completely fine with this. Pro and Amateur golfers use this method all the time.



Here is something I found on the web to justify taking one side of the course out of play;



Jack Nicklaus followed Hogan’s methodology by playing a fade 90 percent of the time and taking the left side of the course out of play as well. He followed that formula to become golf’s greatest player yet, carving out a place of his own in the Hall of Fame and winning the most major golf championships ever, 18, along the way.



My personal and final conclusion is I did not see enough consistency to call this an exploit.



I hope we can put this behind us now and that Anders will choose to stay in the society with us." 

[LKeet6]

As a poll has gone up, I will say my position one last time.

I initially found the evidence VERY convincing, and still feel if you are able to master it, it's a big exploit.

BUT, pretty much from the very beginning of the debate here on our forum, it became apparent to me that nobody here was doing it deliberately, that having an inconsistent line (so I agree with Paul here,) where you SOMETIMES do the push swing isn't going to benefit you hugely, as you are not able to replicate it and know what it's going to do every time.

The mechanic is messed up, we all agree on that.

So I was happy to move on from this what, probably two weeks ago now, maybe more. I'm disappointed it's dragged on and on, as I personally felt we dealt with it great here amongst us. It was a grown up debate, sometimes tense, but nothing personal said and a conclusion that felt easy to move on from, no need to take any action.

I felt I made it clear all along that, whilst I had an opinion on the swing, it wasn't a strong opinion, that I cared greatly about, and by far my main takeaway was if nobody here is doing it deliberately, a consistent, straight, repeated push swing, I am MORE than happy for everyone to carry on as is.

I will not be voting either way. I'm reluctant to make a rule/statement saying people SHOULD swing straight, but also feel it's a good thing to aim for. So it's abstain for me

We have a great community here. Let's just enjoy the golf!

[ray]

I’ll be sad to see Anders go, but if he chooses to it will be because he’s decided to for his own reasons - not because anyone here has said he’s doing anything wrong.

This is why I was happy to leave TGCT. Too many people caring too much about what other people are doing. If you want to be anal and count clicks to compensate for wind - have at it. If you want to short swing, have at it. If you want to push or pull deliberately have at it - but don’t blow wind up my ass saying it’s not an advantage. If it’s not, why do it?

Anyway, I voted we should try to swing straight.

I wish this hadn’t been mentioned. We’ve lost Nina over it and now possibly Anders and for what??? Who is going to be higher or lower on our leaderboard because of this?

[paddyjk19]

Unfortunately I haven’t been as active on here as previous due to starting a business and rescuing a difficult dog but reading these posts make me a little sad, whilst I do condone keeping things fair, this society is just about enjoying a more difficult and realistic version of the game. I’m never going to beat Booze or Stoney but it doesn’t matter! I just like playing this way and I enjoy reading the chatter and firing back when possible.
It’s a shame if Anders has moved on because he’s such an active contributor and I hope he reconsiders.

Lets just enjoy our golf and hopefully our comrades will return and we can get back to enjoying our little slice of TGC freedom over here!

[polekatt/josia]

I haven't been reading this thread because I didn't really understand what a push was, and wasn't interested in it based on the title.   I just came here tonight to see why Paul tagged me.   hahah.

What little I've read of it, seems to be a point that I would treat the same as I treat people talking about politics.   Everyone has opinions, and I'm not interested in debating about them.   

I've never ever thought anyone here was cheating on purpose, nor do I want to think that.    So I'm just going back to my happy little place now, and hope that no one actually does leave permanently over something like this.    Its just a game!  not to be taken seriously, its just a pastime for us to have a great time with each other, friendly competition!

wait.  can I use this to beat Art?  

j/k!

[samterrance]

I voted yes but I don't mind how anyone swings, I just enjoy playing in this society, its like me saying ban the PS4 and PC because they are slightly easier than the Xbox, Just play your own game and enjoy it.

No need for Anders and Nina to stop playing, they will be missed...

[booze]

I pretty much echo the posts above me. This is tough to vote on as I don’t want to lose any members. In hindsight, I kinda regret posting this lol. It’s hard because we do have to keep in mind that the biggest advantage in doing the intentional push/pull out of the blue comes with using the loft box, which we do not. So while I do think it’s still advantageous regardless, I’d say the benefits are mitigated here at least because of that. So while I’m going to vote yes because I do believe people should be trying to shoot straight, I don’t necessarily know that it should be made a rule. I’d be fine with it just coming down to what each person believes I guess.

[polekatt/josia]

I was initially not going to vote because I wasn't real sure what the issue actually is, but at hammers1man 's request, I have voted.  

After thinking and thinking, I finally voted no, based on how I am reading the question.

My reasoning is, I think things are fine the way it is,  but regarding the question itself, although I personally try to hit the ball in  the blue, it doesn't bother me a bit if others dont' want to.  

But then, I started thinking about it and I came up with two more reasons to vote no.

Realistically-  hitting outside the blue could be some weird outside in swing.  If someone could pull that off and hit the ball to their advantage, then ok by me, it seems plausible to be able to at least attempt it in real life.

Personally-  I thought about on rare occasions, I HAVE attempted to pull the ball one way or another around an obstacle, like if  a tree is between me and where I want the ball to go.   In those cases, I have actually hit the ball purposely very fast or very slow to make it curve.  But in doing so, I will push the stick in the opposite direction to make the ball start one way, then curve around said obstacle.   If this is what the whole thing is about, then I would vote no, because I see no problems with doing that.  There are ways to make the ball hook or slice in real life, and I see it as just simulating that. 

apologies if I am misunderstanding the whole thing, or just admitted to doing something wrong.   LOL

[booze]

Mar 14, 2020 4:27:14 GMT polekatt/josia said:

I was initially not going to vote because I wasn't real sure what the issue actually is, but at hammers1man 's request, I have voted.  

After thinking and thinking, I finally voted no, based on how I am reading the question.

My reasoning is, I think things are fine the way it is,  but regarding the question itself, although I personally try to hit the ball in  the blue, it doesn't bother me a bit if others dont' want to.  

But then, I started thinking about it and I came up with two more reasons to vote no.

Realistically-  hitting outside the blue could be some weird outside in swing.  If someone could pull that off and hit the ball to their advantage, then ok by me, it seems plausible to be able to at least attempt it in real life.

Personally-  I thought about on rare occasions, I HAVE attempted to pull the ball one way or another around an obstacle, like if  a tree is between me and where I want the ball to go.   In those cases, I have actually hit the ball purposely very fast or very slow to make it curve.  But in doing so, I will push the stick in the opposite direction to make the ball start one way, then curve around said obstacle.   If this is what the whole thing is about, then I would vote no, because I see no problems with doing that.  There are ways to make the ball hook or slice in real life, and I see it as just simulating that. 

apologies if I am misunderstanding the whole thing, or just admitted to doing something wrong.   LOL

I would bet a lot of us have a tendency, myself included, of pushing or pulling in the opposite direction if going for a fast or slow. I feel like that’s natural as everyone is afraid of pulling on a fast! But so you’re aware of the debate, I’ll try to clarify. The issue more comes with a normal shot (with no wind for example) and aiming to the left, and then purposely shooting to the right. There is a larger miss window than when lining up straight and trying to shoot straight. It’s not just a matter of a one way miss, you can miss your intentional push/pull swing by a bit and still be closer than you would be shooting straight and missing the stick by the same amount. It’s a glitch in the game that really doesn’t make sense. I shouldn’t have a worse shot lining up straight and missing vs lining up to push and pushing more than I intended. It should be the same penalty. Know what I mean? Imagine you trying to shoot with your 5 iron straight, missing kinda bad and watching it sail right. Now here’s someone who aims left and pushes the stick right, and actually misses their intended swing by the SAME amount you did, yet there’s still ends up a decent shot..or at least better than yours. That’s the jist of it...a larger margin for error. When pushing right, you can miss further right on the stick what you were aiming for and still be pretty ok. There’s a certain wall that seems to limit the damage when playing a shot intentionally out of the blue either direction. Hopefully that explains it. I think most people who do this don’t use this exaggerated push I do in my video, this was just more me messing around and seeing how bad my swing line could look and still be pretty accurate.

But again, I kinda feel like this one might be up to the person. It’s not worth losing members over I think. Of all the rules we have, this would certainly not compare to no loft box or no slow backswings (trust me, thats a serious pain in the ass lol)

[colly]

Booze is spot on 👍

[polekatt/josia]

thank you booze  !  Very good explanation, and made perfect sense.  Now at least I understand what the discussion is about!

[andersnm]

Mar 13, 2020 0:04:22 GMT ray said:

If you want to short swing, have at it. If you want to push or pull deliberately have at it - but don’t blow wind up my ass saying it’s not an advantage. If it’s not, why do it?

This sums quite nicely up why I leave this society. Have it crossed your mind that some of us simply are not that good with the controller? (or the mouse.. artvandelay ?)

booze ; you are wrong. I am very happy that Paul and Wade have tested it out and found out that this is just bullshit. If I could be consistent inside the blue, I would do that any day - because I get less penalty inside the blue compared to outside.

Any one of you that believe this bullshit that has come from TGCtours on this matter that is presented by booze, should do the test I put up at the admin section:
The swing feedback must be on for this. Go out on the course in the game. All aims are to be the same on all shots so if you plan to test a push or pull, aim to the side - but always the same amount adjusting for wind. You must be wild with the controller. Not just barely missing the blue, but all the way from the blue to 21.00 or 3.00. Make sure you get a wide dispersion on your shots - actually not like Wade either, make it even wider. And no, not just all the shots out that far, no - make sure you get some close to the blue, some to 1.00, some to 2.00 etc (or 22.00, 23.00 etc on pull shots for us right handers).
If you believe booze and GW_Hope, you should always land pretty much on the same spot no matter how far you miss. So: go out there and test this.

[Nina]

FWIW...
I didn't leave USE because of push/pull debate. I left on my own because I personally prefer to play with follow cam on.
I understand this society wants the most authentic and realistic way to play..

☺️

[ray]

Mar 14, 2020 23:40:35 GMT andersnm said:

Mar 13, 2020 0:04:22 GMT ray said:

If you want to short swing, have at it. If you want to push or pull deliberately have at it - but don’t blow wind up my ass saying it’s not an advantage. If it’s not, why do it?

This sums quite nicely up why I leave this society. Have it crossed your mind that some of us simply are not that good with the controller? (or the mouse.. artvandelay ?)

booze ; you are wrong. I am very happy that Paul and Wade have tested it out and found out that this is just bullshit. If I could be consistent inside the blue, I would do that any day - because I get less penalty inside the blue compared to outside.

Any one of you that believe this bullshit that has come from TGCtours on this matter that is presented by booze, should do the test I put up at the admin section:
The swing feedback must be on for this. Go out on the course in the game. All aims are to be the same on all shots so if you plan to test a push or pull, aim to the side - but always the same amount adjusting for wind. You must be wild with the controller. Not just barely missing the blue, but all the way from the blue to 21.00 or 3.00. Make sure you get a wide dispersion on your shots - actually not like Wade either, make it even wider. And no, not just all the shots out that far, no - make sure you get some close to the blue, some to 1.00, some to 2.00 etc (or 22.00, 23.00 etc on pull shots for us right handers).
If you believe booze and GW_Hope, you should always land pretty much on the same spot no matter how far you miss. So: go out there and test this.

If you’re denying it’s an advantage Anders, why do you want to do it?

No one has asked you to change anything, so why pursue this? There’s nothing you can say that will convince me it’s not an exploit. Again, if it’s not then why do it?

If you decide to leave, thanks for everything you’ve done - but holding people hostage to say it’s not an exploit or you’ll leave has left a bad taste in my mouth. This could, and should have been left alone weeks ago.