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Post by ray on Feb 27, 2020 14:22:02 GMT
Word ✊🏻
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Post by hammers1man on Feb 27, 2020 14:33:33 GMT
I would like to add that whilst Paul has "owned up" to some stuff in a really positive way there, I COMPLETELY understand his frustration with possible exploits and him want to jealously guard what we have here in this society. I think we have pretty much discussed this in a VERY grown up way. Yes, there's been frustration, yes some of the chat got a bit tense, but it never went too far (in my opinion,) and because of that, it's possible to come to an agreement, because it never went over the line. Paul was the one who kept this society alive, and is still the driving factor behind it and I know we're all grateful for it. Let's all move on from this feeling good about it  I think my problem was I was looking at it cynically that the swing is open to abuse again, I don't think things through thoroughly when I'm angry about something. This society wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for you Leon and the rest of the admin  |
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Post by hammers1man on Feb 27, 2020 14:39:11 GMT
Ok I'm off to sort out last weeks leaderboards and Ranking table as I have had an early finish from work, to quote the great AV himself, onwards!
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Post by andersnm on Feb 27, 2020 16:21:59 GMT
I'm sorry Paul - but I take offense from this statement. I have quite worse swing lines than booze and find booze's lines to be very consistent and with very little dispersion. So according to you, I should never hit a fairway in this game. Thank you. It has always been well known to me that the big misses are with tempo, and that swing lines are giving less miss. There will not be more difficulty in this game - sorry that it is doable for mortals like me. I think it is totaly fine that some want a more challenging game - but I find that I have found a quite good challenge with my 60-65% fairway stat and the same in GIR. If there had been a more difficult settings, I would not use it - and I have no problem that others might want to use it. This is the main reason I have been a single-player gamer in all golf games - this society is the only exception. I have no intention of practicing so much with the controller to be "the best" and swing inside the blue bar all the time. So I have found no fun in playing in things like the TGC tours with unrealistic low scoring, and have no ambition in winning in USE at all. With all this fuss - I am seriously considering if I want to continue here - I thought we had a community that was not that focused on the competition, more on the realistic side of things. It seems I was wrong. In single player, I can play at the difficulty level I choose, and play the way I want to play the game. I will always pull my shots in this game - and I will always have more dispersion in my swing lines than the best players. I have no problem with others being better at the game than me - as I said, I am not in USE to win, but it is nice to beat some of you from time to time. This to me, has becoming "oh, Anders has it too easy, he score too well with his crooked swing lines" - and I do not like it. Do it seems like the game is too easy for me? Perhaps it is too easy for others, but there is nothing that can and will be done about it - and it has always been this way, so I have a very hard time understanding the complains at this time. (Yes, -40 is unrealistic low scoring, but those that score it playing in USE are good at the game - much better than me - and you will not see me complain about it). I have to give you my sincere apology andersnm , I am not digging out anybody's swing lines far from it. unclevirt also I apologise to you, I know you are an honest player and I am sorry if it came across that I didn't think that way. Tbh I don't really understand the swing at all, it was my belief that you had to start and finish in the blue zone or get severely punished with a push or pull the further away from it. It seems that this isn't the case, I have always wandered why sometime I get penalised on some shots more than others but have always based my shots in relation to the blue zone. It seems it is about start of the downswing in relation to the finish in the downswing that counts. I want to make it clear I don't expect anyone to change their swing because of this, there has been too much negativity on this subject and I am most at fault here for projecting it. This is a friendly society with members that stick to it's rule book and that is the most important things for me, honesty and sticking to our own set rules here. I have a great team here at the admin andersnm LKeet6 @sirwade al and I think this society has consistently improved with their invaluable help. Anders I don't for one minute think you are playing an easier game if anything you struggle with the pull shot so your good scoring is even more impressive, I thoroughly enjoy our match ups each week which are very close at times. USE rules are difficult and there is so many aspects of the game to scoring well, but the most important things are the immersion, our friendly competition including rivalries and having fun here. This is the last thing I am gonna say about this push swing debate, the swing is what it is and just play your game and enjoy the competition and playing against your rivals each week. Apology accepted Paul I do enjoy competing wth you, though you tend to be a little bit better on most tournaments According to Craig at HB, the code should be that misses inside the blue bar is less than misses outside the blue bar. The thing though, is that the game calculates an average from bottom to the top of you swing line, so if you swing a little bit right and left, the average may not be that bad (as you see from my video - I start on a straightish/rightish path, and end up left). Though I compensate quite a bit on my swing, so when I get the push after the line bounces back I miss like a very slow tempo - pretty bad. HB claims that all is well and good on the code - but as we have different platforms, controllers etc - we are bound to get some different results. I don't think we ever will get a total perfect game, so we have to live with the game we have and accept that there will be some issues we can't control. And I would also say that I don't agree with Leon in a statement that one should not try for a push or pull. If you are so good that you can make a push/pull and fade/draw at will - then you are a better player and you will have advantage on some holes that requires such shots. I applaud such skill and have no problem that players get advantages for being good at the game. That is also true in real life - players that are better able to shape their shots will have an advantage. Anyone remember Bubba Watson when he won the masters on the 10th in head-to-head wth Oostuizen? |
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Post by hammers1man on Feb 27, 2020 16:36:36 GMT
I have to give you my sincere apology andersnm , I am not digging out anybody's swing lines far from it. unclevirt also I apologise to you, I know you are an honest player and I am sorry if it came across that I didn't think that way. Tbh I don't really understand the swing at all, it was my belief that you had to start and finish in the blue zone or get severely punished with a push or pull the further away from it. It seems that this isn't the case, I have always wandered why sometime I get penalised on some shots more than others but have always based my shots in relation to the blue zone. It seems it is about start of the downswing in relation to the finish in the downswing that counts. I want to make it clear I don't expect anyone to change their swing because of this, there has been too much negativity on this subject and I am most at fault here for projecting it. This is a friendly society with members that stick to it's rule book and that is the most important things for me, honesty and sticking to our own set rules here. I have a great team here at the admin andersnm LKeet6 @sirwade al and I think this society has consistently improved with their invaluable help. Anders I don't for one minute think you are playing an easier game if anything you struggle with the pull shot so your good scoring is even more impressive, I thoroughly enjoy our match ups each week which are very close at times. USE rules are difficult and there is so many aspects of the game to scoring well, but the most important things are the immersion, our friendly competition including rivalries and having fun here. This is the last thing I am gonna say about this push swing debate, the swing is what it is and just play your game and enjoy the competition and playing against your rivals each week. Apology accepted Paul I do enjoy competing wth you, though you tend to be a little bit better on most tournaments According to Craig at HB, the code should be that misses inside the blue bar is less than misses outside the blue bar. The thing though, is that the game calculates an average from bottom to the top of you swing line, so if you swing a little bit right and left, the average may not be that bad (as you see from my video - I start on a straightish/rightish path, and end up left). Though I compensate quite a bit on my swing, so when I get the push after the line bounces back I miss like a very slow tempo - pretty bad. HB claims that all is well and good on the code - but as we have different platforms, controllers etc - we are bound to get some different results. I don't think we ever will get a total perfect game, so we have to live with the game we have and accept that there will be some issues we can't control. And I would also say that I don't agree with Leon in a statement that one should not try for a push or pull. If you are so good that you can make a push/pull and fade/draw at will - then you are a better player and you will have advantage on some holes that requires such shots. I applaud such skill and have no problem that players get advantages for being good at the game. That is also true in real life - players that are better able to shape their shots will have an advantage. Anyone remember Bubba Watson when he won the masters on the 10th in head-to-head wth Oostuizen? I have a one shot lower handicap than you since we switched to your society, remember I have been playing USE settings including partial chips much longer than you have so it is pretty close I think. There are actually a few of us around similar handicaps near the 0.0 mark, it's a great way of checking out rivalry  |
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Post by LKeet6 on Feb 27, 2020 16:54:57 GMT
I have to give you my sincere apology andersnm , I am not digging out anybody's swing lines far from it. unclevirt also I apologise to you, I know you are an honest player and I am sorry if it came across that I didn't think that way. Tbh I don't really understand the swing at all, it was my belief that you had to start and finish in the blue zone or get severely punished with a push or pull the further away from it. It seems that this isn't the case, I have always wandered why sometime I get penalised on some shots more than others but have always based my shots in relation to the blue zone. It seems it is about start of the downswing in relation to the finish in the downswing that counts. I want to make it clear I don't expect anyone to change their swing because of this, there has been too much negativity on this subject and I am most at fault here for projecting it. This is a friendly society with members that stick to it's rule book and that is the most important things for me, honesty and sticking to our own set rules here. I have a great team here at the admin andersnm LKeet6 @sirwade al and I think this society has consistently improved with their invaluable help. Anders I don't for one minute think you are playing an easier game if anything you struggle with the pull shot so your good scoring is even more impressive, I thoroughly enjoy our match ups each week which are very close at times. USE rules are difficult and there is so many aspects of the game to scoring well, but the most important things are the immersion, our friendly competition including rivalries and having fun here. This is the last thing I am gonna say about this push swing debate, the swing is what it is and just play your game and enjoy the competition and playing against your rivals each week. Apology accepted Paul I do enjoy competing wth you, though you tend to be a little bit better on most tournaments According to Craig at HB, the code should be that misses inside the blue bar is less than misses outside the blue bar. The thing though, is that the game calculates an average from bottom to the top of you swing line, so if you swing a little bit right and left, the average may not be that bad (as you see from my video - I start on a straightish/rightish path, and end up left). Though I compensate quite a bit on my swing, so when I get the push after the line bounces back I miss like a very slow tempo - pretty bad. HB claims that all is well and good on the code - but as we have different platforms, controllers etc - we are bound to get some different results. I don't think we ever will get a total perfect game, so we have to live with the game we have and accept that there will be some issues we can't control. And I would also say that I don't agree with Leon in a statement that one should not try for a push or pull. If you are so good that you can make a push/pull and fade/draw at will - then you are a better player and you will have advantage on some holes that requires such shots. I applaud such skill and have no problem that players get advantages for being good at the game. That is also true in real life - players that are better able to shape their shots will have an advantage. Anyone remember Bubba Watson when he won the masters on the 10th in head-to-head wth Oostuizen? I made the SUGGESTION (not necessarily a strong opinion of mine) that we put that in our rules, as we now know there is a potential exploit there. It's possible to "try your best to swing straight" AND get a fade or draw, by swinging straight along the cone and then doing a fast or slow downswing. I don't have a strong opinion on it, but would at least like my suggestion to be understood... |
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Post by andersnm on Feb 27, 2020 17:26:29 GMT
Apology accepted Paul I do enjoy competing wth you, though you tend to be a little bit better on most tournaments According to Craig at HB, the code should be that misses inside the blue bar is less than misses outside the blue bar. The thing though, is that the game calculates an average from bottom to the top of you swing line, so if you swing a little bit right and left, the average may not be that bad (as you see from my video - I start on a straightish/rightish path, and end up left). Though I compensate quite a bit on my swing, so when I get the push after the line bounces back I miss like a very slow tempo - pretty bad. HB claims that all is well and good on the code - but as we have different platforms, controllers etc - we are bound to get some different results. I don't think we ever will get a total perfect game, so we have to live with the game we have and accept that there will be some issues we can't control. And I would also say that I don't agree with Leon in a statement that one should not try for a push or pull. If you are so good that you can make a push/pull and fade/draw at will - then you are a better player and you will have advantage on some holes that requires such shots. I applaud such skill and have no problem that players get advantages for being good at the game. That is also true in real life - players that are better able to shape their shots will have an advantage. Anyone remember Bubba Watson when he won the masters on the 10th in head-to-head wth Oostuizen? I made the SUGGESTION (not necessarily a strong opinion of mine) that we put that in our rules, as we now know there is a potential exploit there. It's possible to "try your best to swing straight" AND get a fade or draw, by swinging straight along the cone and then doing a fast or slow downswing. I don't have a strong opinion on it, but would at least like my suggestion to be understood... I understand you made the suggestion Leon - I just don't agree to put it in the rules (I don't see it as an exploit either; good players ought to be able to push and pull the ball according to what is best at a given shot - ie. what angle do I want my ball to land and roll on the green). |
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Post by LKeet6 on Feb 27, 2020 17:52:10 GMT
I made the SUGGESTION (not necessarily a strong opinion of mine) that we put that in our rules, as we now know there is a potential exploit there. It's possible to "try your best to swing straight" AND get a fade or draw, by swinging straight along the cone and then doing a fast or slow downswing. I don't have a strong opinion on it, but would at least like my suggestion to be understood... I understand you made the suggestion Leon - I just don't agree to put it in the rules (I don't see it as an exploit either; good players ought to be able to push and pull the ball according to what is best at a given shot - ie. what angle do I want my ball to land and roll on the green). I think we're in danger of repeating ourselves. Good players CAN shape the ball, without using this type of swing... I have CLEARLY said, a number of times, we need to be careful of accusing people here, as many do it accidentally, BUT if it can be exploited, it is a "potential" (note the use of that word) exploit, and it IS being used as an exploit by many people, on the tours in general... Writing it in our rules wouldn't be for you, or me, or Paul, it would be for people who are new, people who want to know what we're about. Saying how we see the game. I know what you're going to say, you still don't want it in the rules, and that's fine. But I don't believe you're accurately describing my suggestion, or the situation in general... |
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Post by ray on Feb 27, 2020 18:21:32 GMT
Im for a watered down version.
Eg - The push/pull swing is and obvious advantage that can be exploited. If you’re the type of person that wants to do that - this probably isn’t the society for you.
Just to add info to the pile. My swing is perfectly straight for the most part, with a tick left at the top. Depending on the size of the tick, my ball reacts as if I’ve swung from 6 o clock to 11 o clock. I play for a small pull most shots, but if I don’t hold it as long at the top I get an almost perfectly straight swing, I tend to hold it at the top most of the time which is why I allow for it.
I don’t think anyone that has watched my streams would think I’m gaming the system, just like I’m sure Anders and guys like unclevirt aren’t either.
If anyone has doubts over their swing/technique - please post a link to a round and I’ll have a look. I’m pretty sure you can see intent if you can see a person setting their shot up. Just to be clear though, I don’t doubt anyone in here 🙏🏼
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Post by colly on Feb 27, 2020 18:40:46 GMT
The main problem with the intentional aim left & push swing is you can completely eradicate the two way miss.Anyone aiming straight & attempting to swing from 12 to 6 can miss target in both directions.
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Post by andersnm on Feb 27, 2020 19:10:14 GMT
The main problem with the intentional aim left & push swing is you can completely eradicate the two way miss.Anyone aiming straight & attempting to swing from 12 to 6 can miss target in both directions. Not true. I aim to the right all the time to compensate for my pull - but I do not pull the ball the same distance all the shots - so I miss left and right just as if you hit straight. I have yet to see anyone completely hitting dead center on a straight shot or a push or a pull shot each and every shot. You miss sometimes right, you miss sometimes left. Question is if the same amount of pixels left or right is less of a miss if you hit straight, pull or push - and the developer of the game claims that it is so and that inside the blue bar is less miss than outside the blue bar. All I've seen so far is showing me that the difference is very little. I do not see anyone pushing or pulling consistently in here having more or less of an advantage - if you are consistent and have little dispersion, you are more accurate - either if you hit straight or a consistent pull/push. For those that use the loft box outside USE, the blue bar is so narrow that it is almost impossible to shoot a straight shot, so if you know you hit a pull or push, you can compensate for it and therefore be more accurate. I do not see that as an exploit either. It's just common sense to play to your tendency and be good at it. Also, the main thing for me on misses are when I get bad tempo. I just had a very fast in the water on hole 1 on Himmerland in round 4. So the big issue on accuracy is not swing line, but tempo. |
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Post by colly on Feb 27, 2020 19:35:49 GMT
The main problem with the intentional aim left & push swing is you can completely eradicate the two way miss.Anyone aiming straight & attempting to swing from 12 to 6 can miss target in both directions. Not true. I aim to the right all the time to compensate for my pull - but I do not pull the ball the same distance all the shots - so I miss left and right just as if you hit straight. I have yet to see anyone completely hitting dead center on a straight shot or a push or a pull shot each and every shot. You miss sometimes right, you miss sometimes left. Question is if the same amount of pixels left or right is less of a miss if you hit straight, pull or push - and the developer of the game claims that it is so and that inside the blue bar is less miss than outside the blue bar. All I've seen so far is showing me that the difference is very little. I do not see anyone pushing or pulling consistently in here having more or less of an advantage - if you are consistent and have little dispersion, you are more accurate - either if you hit straight or a consistent pull/push. For those that use the loft box outside USE, the blue bar is so narrow that it is almost impossible to shoot a straight shot, so if you know you hit a pull or push, you can compensate for it and therefore be more accurate. I do not see that as an exploit either. It's just common sense to play to your tendency and be good at it. Also, the main thing for me on misses are when I get bad tempo. I just had a very fast in the water on hole 1 on Himmerland in round 4. So the big issue on accuracy is not swing line, but tempo. Sorry Anders ,if you aimed left of target then swing outside the blue line on the right it would be impossible to miss left only slightly further right.There is a bigger penalty for missing left or right within the blue line when attempting to hit straight. |
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Post by andersnm on Feb 27, 2020 19:51:55 GMT
Not true. I aim to the right all the time to compensate for my pull - but I do not pull the ball the same distance all the shots - so I miss left and right just as if you hit straight. I have yet to see anyone completely hitting dead center on a straight shot or a push or a pull shot each and every shot. You miss sometimes right, you miss sometimes left. Question is if the same amount of pixels left or right is less of a miss if you hit straight, pull or push - and the developer of the game claims that it is so and that inside the blue bar is less miss than outside the blue bar. All I've seen so far is showing me that the difference is very little. I do not see anyone pushing or pulling consistently in here having more or less of an advantage - if you are consistent and have little dispersion, you are more accurate - either if you hit straight or a consistent pull/push. For those that use the loft box outside USE, the blue bar is so narrow that it is almost impossible to shoot a straight shot, so if you know you hit a pull or push, you can compensate for it and therefore be more accurate. I do not see that as an exploit either. It's just common sense to play to your tendency and be good at it. Also, the main thing for me on misses are when I get bad tempo. I just had a very fast in the water on hole 1 on Himmerland in round 4. So the big issue on accuracy is not swing line, but tempo. Sorry Anders ,if you aimed left of target then swing outside the blue line on the right it would be impossible to miss left only slightly further right.There is a bigger penalty for missing left or right within the blue line when attempting to hit straight. It is the same if you aim left and have your swing line on the right side - a push, or if you aim right and have the swing line on the left like I do and have a pull. Everyone I have seen - and there are some good players here that are very accurate with little dispersion - miss both ways - if your line goes father to the left or right compared to how you compensate with your aim, the ball will miss in that direction so yes - it is quite possible, and it is done all the time for us - to miss both ways. To clarify: if I compensate for a miss at 10 and hit 11 - i will miss right even if I pull the ball. I would in fact argue that it is easier to aim center rather than have the guesswork on how much to compensate. And, I have also yet to see any conclusive evidence that the developers are wrong. Have in mind that even if the line looks bad and crooked, that it is the average that determine how much of a pull or push you get. I'll give you an example - I can start the swing inside the blue bar, get that line a little bit to the right before it goes to the left. This will reduce the amount of pull even if I am way outside the blue bar on the left at the top of my line. All the tests that has been done are done without exact numbers from the game on what is going on, so I would be careful to come to any conclusion that the developers are lying. And also from what I've seen on testing this - there is very little difference. So that brings me to my own conclusion that this is a major exaggeration of a non-problem in the game. |
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Post by colly on Feb 27, 2020 20:42:36 GMT
Let’s say you have a par 3 with water to the left of the green & the pin is on the left side of green,plenty of green & no major trouble to right of green.There is no wind,if I want to attack the pin I must aim straight at it,if I then attempt a 6 to 12 swing within the blue line but hit more towards 11 there is a chance I could end up wet.Alternatively if I aim left of pin,even towards the water then make sure I push my swing out of the blue line even as far as towards 2 o’clock the water does not come into play.Worst case scenario would be to right of green because the penalty for being outside of blue line is nowhere near big enough.I am obviously talking perfect tempo here,the penalty for slow downswing is far greater.
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Post by andersnm on Feb 27, 2020 21:00:26 GMT
Let’s say you have a par 3 with water to the left of the green & the pin is on the left side of green,plenty of green & no major trouble to right of green.There is no wind,if I want to attack the pin I must aim straight at it,if I then attempt a 6 to 12 swing within the blue line but hit more towards 11 there is a chance I could end up wet.Alternatively if I aim left of pin,even towards the water then make sure I push my swing out of the blue line even as far as towards 2 o’clock the water does not come into play.Worst case scenario would be to right of green because the penalty for being outside of blue line is nowhere near big enough.I am obviously talking perfect tempo here,the penalty for slow downswing is far greater. Aiming out into the water is a big risk. Lets say you have figured out how much to compensate for your usual push. There is no guarantee that you will not hit too little push and end up wet. It depends on how good you are with the controller. On such a pin, the safest shot is the draw shot, and many times greens are sloping towards the pin so with the correct spin on the ball you have much larger margin for error aiming into the green. I would bet quite much that you would not compensate enough with a push on such a pin and that you will on most shots miss right of the pin because any with a common sense in golf know that is the safe play. So if you aim far enough out into the water to compensate for a big push - that is a bigger risk than aiming at the pin hitting straight - the margin for error on your evaluation on how much to compensate - and the execution to get the ball close is worse than the risk of hitting too much of a pull hitting straight. |
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