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Post by LKeet6 on Feb 26, 2020 21:01:20 GMT
I'm trying to differentiate between the deliberate manipulation and what people are doing by mistake.
Or are way saying (for sure) that the two are the same??
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Post by andersnm on Feb 26, 2020 21:10:13 GMT
You can swing from side to side, and if the total points on either side cancel each other out, the swing will be straight, even if the swing line is the complete opposite of straight. It is how the game is made, and HB will not change it. No I did not play TGC 2 - and I have played TGC 1 for .. maybe 10 hours in total. Yes Paul, I feel it is the competition - you think your line is straighter, and therefore should score better than me that have a more crooked swing. Even if the game is designed to have the average of your swing-line determine the swing plane. A crooked swing line can be straighter than a straight swing line - as it is implemented. And it is intentional implemented this way, not a bug or flaw. Can you explain EXACTLY what sort of line you're getting? Are we talking about straight down and then an 11:55 type position that pulls it slightly? Just a few shots on the range. I can be more accurate than this though - usualy I start inside the blue and drift to the left - sometimes halfway up the line, and as a bonus - I got my weird bug on the first shot where the swing line Bounces back down and I get a push as a result. |
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Post by hammers1man on Feb 26, 2020 21:14:54 GMT
Can you explain EXACTLY what sort of line you're getting? Are we talking about straight down and then an 11:55 type position that pulls it slightly? Just a few shots on the range. I can be more accurate than this though - usualy I start inside the blue and drift to the left - sometimes halfway up the line, and as a bonus - I got my weird bug on the first shot where the swing line Bounces back down and I get a push as a result. My last controller got so loose I just couldn't hit anything straight. I use my right thumb horizontally and have found it works so much better. I am not a consistent straight hitter by any means though. |
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Post by ray on Feb 27, 2020 0:54:14 GMT
I’m so glad I’m stubborn and refuse to even look into changing the way I swing. Never tried a flick, won’t try this either. I hadn’t looked on the TGC forum for a few weeks so didn’t know anything about this.
Mine gets me almost perfectly straight lines with a little tick left that means I aim right a bit. I was great on TGC2, but struggle with tempo a bit on this game - although it’s got to have been improved on XB since the early months.
Bottom line it’s a game. Games have exploits. Slow hand claps to those people that work them out and use them. Hopefully the next game will have ways to combat it.
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Post by ray on Feb 27, 2020 1:00:47 GMT
Can you explain EXACTLY what sort of line you're getting? Are we talking about straight down and then an 11:55 type position that pulls it slightly? Just a few shots on the range. I can be more accurate than this though - usualy I start inside the blue and drift to the left - sometimes halfway up the line, and as a bonus - I got my weird bug on the first shot where the swing line Bounces back down and I get a push as a result. I’ve never seen swings outside the blue like that before. It seems fairly consistent though, and if you’re getting consistent results you can allow for them. Mine is way straighter than most people and I’m mid field. Have a look at Arnold Palmers swing - it’s not pretty, but he knew where the ball was going to go. |
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Post by unclevirt on Feb 27, 2020 2:52:56 GMT
I have a video up. In no way is it a deliberate manipulation. It's just the way I learned to swing. My swing is more of a 6:30 to 12:30 swing on average I'd say.
I'm working on hitting it straighter (since finding out this not accepted by the players of the game) but in general the swing mechanic for this game is broken and that's not going to change.
Also, I have no recollection of a tutorial...guess I skipped that and went straight to career mode...
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Post by LKeet6 on Feb 27, 2020 8:08:06 GMT
The issue I'm having, both with understanding what's being manipulated, and how to prevent this, is that booze's swing there looks almost "right?!" I'm actually amazed he can just keep replicating it!
I can see obviously there is a little angled line flicking out at the top, so that little flick out right at the top of the swing is making the ball stay straighter?! And booze's normal swing NEVER has that flick out? And that makes his swing LESS accurate? Have I got that right? I just find it all baffling.
I've got to be honest, I don't see how we police this. I don't know how we differentiate between people doing it deliberately or accidentally, I don't know how we spot people doing it, and I don't know what the punishment should be.
My swing does a variety of things. It's usually all inside the cone, I definitely attempt to swing straight and back and forward, but it will often have some exaggerated error in it, like Anders in his video, not usually quite as all over the place, and usually with some part of the line inside the cone. I'd say it's about 50/50 between a close to straight line and a line with an error in it. I'll be honest, when the error happens, it doesn't tend to result in a crazy shot that goes miles off target, that happens only when I get very little of the line in the cone. I'm the same as ray, I allow for a slight fade in my shot. But I definitely miss left sometimes as well.
I'm hating this whole situation, to be honest...
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Post by ray on Feb 27, 2020 10:09:07 GMT
The people I’m close with on the leaderboard most weeks aren’t the kind of people that will use an exploit. The people that choose to use it will be way ahead of me/us, so it won’t bother me.
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Post by unclevirt on Feb 27, 2020 13:05:03 GMT
The issue I'm having, both with understanding what's being manipulated, and how to prevent this, is that booze's swing there looks almost "right?!" I'm actually amazed he can just keep replicating it! I can see obviously there is a little angled line flicking out at the top, so that little flick out right at the top of the swing is making the ball stay straighter?! And booze's normal swing NEVER has that flick out? And that makes his swing LESS accurate? Have I got that right? I just find it all baffling. I've got to be honest, I don't see how we police this. I don't know how we differentiate between people doing it deliberately or accidentally, I don't know how we spot people doing it, and I don't know what the punishment should be. My swing does a variety of things. It's usually all inside the cone, I definitely attempt to swing straight and back and forward, but it will often have some exaggerated error in it, like Anders in his video, not usually quite as all over the place, and usually with some part of the line inside the cone. I'd say it's about 50/50 between a close to straight line and a line with an error in it. I'll be honest, when the error happens, it doesn't tend to result in a crazy shot that goes miles off target, that happens only when I get very little of the line in the cone. I'm the same as ray, I allow for a slight fade in my shot. But I definitely miss left sometimes as well. I'm hating this whole situation, to be honest... USE is played on an honor system. I think that's how you police it unfortunately. With that being said, I'm sitting out of USE until I learn what is right and wrong by everyone's standards over on the TGCtours thread. Once that happens, I can confidently self police my own gameplay. I've only ever been honest here, as I've called out my loft box use multiple times. Integrity comes way before winning, especially here, so I plan to keep it that way. |
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Post by hammers1man on Feb 27, 2020 13:41:13 GMT
It is a joke really, Booze swings like a hacker and still hits -11 (no offence booze I know you're not a hacker really  ). The results of some of those swings should be in the trees and he should be struggling to break 80, have your say in the HB forum if you are as angry as me about this HB Dispersion linear? linkI'm sorry Paul - but I take offense from this statement. I have quite worse swing lines than booze and find booze's lines to be very consistent and with very little dispersion. So according to you, I should never hit a fairway in this game. Thank you. It has always been well known to me that the big misses are with tempo, and that swing lines are giving less miss. There will not be more difficulty in this game - sorry that it is doable for mortals like me. I think it is totaly fine that some want a more challenging game - but I find that I have found a quite good challenge with my 60-65% fairway stat and the same in GIR. If there had been a more difficult settings, I would not use it - and I have no problem that others might want to use it. This is the main reason I have been a single-player gamer in all golf games - this society is the only exception. I have no intention of practicing so much with the controller to be "the best" and swing inside the blue bar all the time. So I have found no fun in playing in things like the TGC tours with unrealistic low scoring, and have no ambition in winning in USE at all. With all this fuss - I am seriously considering if I want to continue here - I thought we had a community that was not that focused on the competition, more on the realistic side of things. It seems I was wrong. In single player, I can play at the difficulty level I choose, and play the way I want to play the game. I will always pull my shots in this game - and I will always have more dispersion in my swing lines than the best players. I have no problem with others being better at the game than me - as I said, I am not in USE to win, but it is nice to beat some of you from time to time. This to me, has becoming "oh, Anders has it too easy, he score too well with his crooked swing lines" - and I do not like it. Do it seems like the game is too easy for me? Perhaps it is too easy for others, but there is nothing that can and will be done about it - and it has always been this way, so I have a very hard time understanding the complains at this time. (Yes, -40 is unrealistic low scoring, but those that score it playing in USE are good at the game - much better than me - and you will not see me complain about it). I have to give you my sincere apology andersnm, I am not digging out anybody's swing lines far from it. unclevirt also I apologise to you, I know you are an honest player and I am sorry if it came across that I didn't think that way. Tbh I don't really understand the swing at all, it was my belief that you had to start and finish in the blue zone or get severely punished with a push or pull the further away from it. It seems that this isn't the case, I have always wandered why sometime I get penalised on some shots more than others but have always based my shots in relation to the blue zone. It seems it is about start of the downswing in relation to the finish in the downswing that counts. I want to make it clear I don't expect anyone to change their swing because of this, there has been too much negativity on this subject and I am most at fault here for projecting it. This is a friendly society with members that stick to it's rule book and that is the most important things for me, honesty and sticking to our own set rules here. I have a great team here at the admin andersnm LKeet6 @sirwade al and I think this society has consistently improved with their invaluable help. Anders I don't for one minute think you are playing an easier game if anything you struggle with the pull shot so your good scoring is even more impressive, I thoroughly enjoy our match ups each week which are very close at times. USE rules are difficult and there is so many aspects of the game to scoring well, but the most important things are the immersion, our friendly competition including rivalries and having fun here. This is the last thing I am gonna say about this push swing debate, the swing is what it is and just play your game and enjoy the competition and playing against your rivals each week. |
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Post by stoneysooner on Feb 27, 2020 13:53:45 GMT
My opinion only.
Stephen, what you are doing is absolutely okay in my book. Your swing is a little out to out, while at the same time doing your best to remain in the cone. From what I can tell it is a little advantageous to you, but not so much that it should be penalized in this setting. I say a little advantageous because my 12 to 6 swing is likely to finish just outside the cone left or right sometimes, and I have to deal with a miss that could be left or right by 5 - 7 yards or so.
The big knock with this to me is absolute abuse of the mechanism. For example, you can literally have a swing from 7:30 to 2:30, 7:00 to 2:00, or even 6:00 to 2:30 that crosses the cone only at impact, and the miss is 12 yards right. You can play it every single time with no effort in trying to be in the cone. Guys learn the math on stuff like that pretty quickly, and the most difficult courses become dart boards on every shot. The natural swing with a little push is just that, and anyone playing it should be allowed to continue down that path. It would be extremely difficult to determine if someone strayed from that path though and just started flailing at every shot because the miss is completely reliable.
TGC Tours is in an unbelievably tough spot to make any kind of call on this, but in my opinion the above example is the major issue as there is really no way to police it. I hope that both anders and unclevirt continue to play USE.
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Post by hammers1man on Feb 27, 2020 14:08:17 GMT
My opinion only. Stephen, what you are doing is absolutely okay in my book. Your swing is a little out to out, while at the same time doing your best to remain in the cone. From what I can tell it is a little advantageous to you, but not so much that it should be penalized in this setting. I say a little advantageous because my 12 to 6 swing is likely to finish just outside the cone left or right sometimes, and I have to deal with a miss that could be left or right by 5 - 7 yards or so. The big knock with this to me is absolute abuse of the mechanism. For example, you can literally have a swing from 7:30 to 2:30, 7:00 to 2:00, or even 6:00 to 2:30 that crosses the cone only at impact, and the miss is 12 yards right. You can play it every single time with no effort in trying to be in the cone. Guys learn the math on stuff like that pretty quickly, and the most difficult courses become dart boards on every shot. The natural swing with a little push is just that, and anyone playing it should be allowed to continue down that path. It would be extremely difficult to determine if someone strayed from that path though and just started flailing at every shot because the miss is completely reliable. TGC Tours is in an unbelievably tough spot to make any kind of call on this, but in my opinion the above example is the major issue as there is really no way to police it. I hope that both anders and unclevirt continue to play USE. The thing is Robyn we are just as vulnerable to a flick swing as much as an intentional push or intentional use of the loft box that's why we have to be careful who we accept as members. Unfortunately this situation has alienated some here that play the game honestly and I have been part of that which I apologise for. I have no problems with Stephen and Ander's swings. |
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Post by LKeet6 on Feb 27, 2020 14:14:53 GMT
My opinion only. Stephen, what you are doing is absolutely okay in my book. Your swing is a little out to out, while at the same time doing your best to remain in the cone. From what I can tell it is a little advantageous to you, but not so much that it should be penalized in this setting. I say a little advantageous because my 12 to 6 swing is likely to finish just outside the cone left or right sometimes, and I have to deal with a miss that could be left or right by 5 - 7 yards or so. The big knock with this to me is absolute abuse of the mechanism. For example, you can literally have a swing from 7:30 to 2:30, 7:00 to 2:00, or even 6:00 to 2:30 that crosses the cone only at impact, and the miss is 12 yards right. You can play it every single time with no effort in trying to be in the cone. Guys learn the math on stuff like that pretty quickly, and the most difficult courses become dart boards on every shot. The natural swing with a little push is just that, and anyone playing it should be allowed to continue down that path. It would be extremely difficult to determine if someone strayed from that path though and just started flailing at every shot because the miss is completely reliable. TGC Tours is in an unbelievably tough spot to make any kind of call on this, but in my opinion the above example is the major issue as there is really no way to police it. I hope that both anders and unclevirt continue to play USE. This post nails it, in my opinion... |
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Post by LKeet6 on Feb 27, 2020 14:19:03 GMT
I would like to add that whilst Paul has "owned up" to some stuff in a really positive way there, I COMPLETELY understand his frustration with possible exploits and him wanting to jealously guard what we have here in this society. I think we have pretty much discussed this in a VERY grown up way. Yes, there's been frustration, yes some of the chat got a bit tense, but it never went too far (in my opinion,) and because of that, it's possible to come to an agreement, because it never went over the line. Paul was the one who kept this society alive, and is still the driving factor behind it and I know we're all grateful for it. Let's all move on from this feeling good about it  |
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Post by LKeet6 on Feb 27, 2020 14:21:01 GMT
I think we could add a very loose addition to our rules, which explains what the push swing is, explain that it CAN be exploited, and that, as much as possible, we greatly encourage players to attempt to swing straight.
Everyone feel that's reasonable?
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). The results of some of those swings should be in the trees and he should be struggling to break 80, have your say in the HB forum if you are as angry as me about this 
