Why are the Main Tours Not Doing This?

[davec187]

I realize this discussion has been going on since the beginning of TGC, but why are there not more people playing this way?  I assume we have a lot of players who play real life golf, so why wouldn't people be more interested in playing a sim style game instead of colored beads laying on the greens?  I see the scores on the main tours and every year, they are the same -10 or better per round just to compete.  How is that fun and satisfying?  
With USE settings, a par feels good, a birdie feels great.  Hell, I even have bogeys that feel good!  There is nothing better than sinking a 20ft + putt stroke or a perfectly executed approach shot playing with these settings.  I just don't understand why the main tours aren't progressing more to this style. I play on the Challenge tour using these settings and will never compete with higher tiers, but I am still having fun.  I can never go back to the "standard" way of playing.
I'm not ranting or complaining, I just don't get the fun in the standard settings.  Anyways, we are lucky to have this tour, so thanks again for all involved in making USE a reality!

[wimigbg]

I totally agree. The satisfaction of reading a putt correctly, the frustration of the game of golf, accepting my drive into the rough now change my ambition to a bogey etc. Just the satisfaction and the beauty of the courses.

When I play with a ghost and they splash from the fairway/rough I always say “cheater” in my head, haha. (Off course they can play how ever they want)

[booze]

There’s just not enough players who would be interested, unfortunately. Here’s an example. There’s a very popular society on PS4, TaylorMade....which just follows the main TGCT settings. Lots of participation in it. The founder last week created a new TM society with the same exact settings, except the green grids are off. As of right now, there’s only about 10 people in it and only 4 or 5 actually playing. I think that speaks volumes to how most people just aren’t interested in the extra difficulty. We are a niche group. It would never be accepted by most players on the main tours, so many would just quit because they couldn’t handle the grind of no grid. I think it will always be the way it is now, main tours with grid, and TST without. As for the splash only out of bunkers....it could only ever be tried with TST but I think it would be a sh!tstorm. There’s no way to have more rules that require ghosting in order to enforce it. Players here are honorable as a small group, but we can’t pretend everyone in TST would be the same. That’s expecting far too much. I’m sure there are already people now who take the risk and break the putting rule sometimes, rolling the dice that they won’t be ghosted.

[Deleted]

Dec 15, 2020 19:35:34 GMT booze said:

There’s just not enough players who would be interested, unfortunately. Here’s an example. There’s a very popular society on PS4, TaylorMade....which just follows the main TGCT settings. Lots of participation in it. The founder last week created a new TM society with the same exact settings, except the green grids are off. As of right now, there’s only about 10 people in it and only 4 or 5 actually playing. I think that speaks volumes to how most people just aren’t interested in the extra difficulty. We are a niche group. It would never be accepted by most players on the main tours, so many would just quit because they couldn’t handle the grind of no grid. I think it will always be the way it is now, main tours with grid, and TST without. As for the splash only out of bunkers....it could only ever be tried with TST but I think it would be a sh!tstorm. There’s no way to have more rules that require ghosting in order to enforce it. Players here are honorable as a small group, but we can’t pretend everyone in TST would be the same. That’s expecting far too much. I’m sure there are already people now who take the risk and break the putting rule sometimes, rolling the dice that they won’t be ghosted.

You are correct Booze. hammers1man and andersnm tried last summer to get TST to go more sim and they rejected it. Most people just want to turn on the game and start slapping in birdies. As far as breaking the putting rules. Don't they lock the settings so everyone has to play the same in a society? 

[booze]

Dec 15, 2020 19:42:09 GMT @sirwade said:

Dec 15, 2020 19:35:34 GMT booze said:

There’s just not enough players who would be interested, unfortunately. Here’s an example. There’s a very popular society on PS4, TaylorMade....which just follows the main TGCT settings. Lots of participation in it. The founder last week created a new TM society with the same exact settings, except the green grids are off. As of right now, there’s only about 10 people in it and only 4 or 5 actually playing. I think that speaks volumes to how most people just aren’t interested in the extra difficulty. We are a niche group. It would never be accepted by most players on the main tours, so many would just quit because they couldn’t handle the grind of no grid. I think it will always be the way it is now, main tours with grid, and TST without. As for the splash only out of bunkers....it could only ever be tried with TST but I think it would be a sh!tstorm. There’s no way to have more rules that require ghosting in order to enforce it. Players here are honorable as a small group, but we can’t pretend everyone in TST would be the same. That’s expecting far too much. I’m sure there are already people now who take the risk and break the putting rule sometimes, rolling the dice that they won’t be ghosted.

You are correct Booze. hammers1man and andersnm tried last summer to get TST to go more sim and they rejected it. Most people just want to turn on the game and start slapping in birdies. As far as breaking the putting rules. Don't they lock the settings so everyone has to play the same in a society? 

Yep, that’s most players in a nutshell. They need their birdies or the game sucks.

With the putting I’m referring to the you must putt on the green unless it’s longer than 75 feet rule. There’s no way to actually enforce that. Someone could just chip from 50 feet at any time if they wanted to. The only thing that stops it is the threat of someone happening to ghost you and reporting it. There’s nothing in the API that indicates to the admins that someone cheated, and no way in a society to force putter on the green. There are of course acceptable times where you can chip/flop from inside 75, so it could never be done. Adding another element that’s an honor thing  like the splash, just wouldn’t work imo.

[andersnm]

Dec 15, 2020 19:48:17 GMT booze said:

Dec 15, 2020 19:42:09 GMT @sirwade said:

You are correct Booze. hammers1man and andersnm tried last summer to get TST to go more sim and they rejected it. Most people just want to turn on the game and start slapping in birdies. As far as breaking the putting rules. Don't they lock the settings so everyone has to play the same in a society? 

Yep, that’s most players in a nutshell. They need their birdies or the game sucks.

With the putting I’m referring to the you must putt on the green unless it’s longer than 75 feet rule. There’s no way to actually enforce that. Someone could just chip from 50 feet at any time if they wanted to. The only thing that stops it is the threat of someone happening to ghost you and reporting it. There’s nothing in the API that indicates to the admins that someone cheated, and no way in a society to force putter on the green. There are of course acceptable times where you can chip/flop from inside 75, so it could never be done. Adding another element that’s an honor thing  like the splash, just wouldn’t work imo.

I have only argued on two changes on TST; remove the putting marker in TGC 2019, and aim marker in PGA 2k21. This is a society setting so no honor is needed. The other thing I have argued, is to only play real courses - and this is really easy to do. I have never argued to include honor rules in TST. I know hammers1man have been argueing on no out of turn ghosts - but this is something that is impossible to force and detect.

booze: how much of an aid do you find the aim marker?
From my point of view, it is first an eye sore. I played some tournaments in TST in TGC 2019 and found I was really annoyed by the marker. In TGC 2019 the marker helped in aiming, and more important help in distance control, most important on downhill putts. So it was imo an aid in TGC 2019. I have not played with it in PGA 2k21 - so I do not know how much of an aid it is - but it should help in aiming, and since it is no longer just for putting, this is for all shots. It also helps set the intended distance, combine with haptic feedback, and you get an aid in where to stop your partial shots. I do not think the aim marker helps in distance control on putting the same it did in TGC 2019, so you need the haptic feedback or power meter to get the aid.

I also find it interesting that they have the putting rule. When they have this rule that is a honor rule and relies on ghosts to detect "cheating", they could add no splash outside bunkers, or no chipping from bunkers as well. I also do not agree on the rule itself. Following USE spirit - you should ask "would it be realistic to putt, chip or flop this shot?". I had a 147 feet putt on this weeks tournament at Losby - uphill by 1-2 feet. Green speed 134 feet - so I knew a putt would end up way too short even on max. In real life, I would have used a putter on that 48 yard shot. In this game - impossible to get it close. So I couldn't do the realistic shot, and needed to pitch the shot (which I failed at and it went too far). But if I would be able to putt, with faster green speeds - I would putt from 147 feet.

[booze]

Dec 15, 2020 20:13:58 GMT andersnm said:

Dec 15, 2020 19:48:17 GMT booze said:

Yep, that’s most players in a nutshell. They need their birdies or the game sucks.

With the putting I’m referring to the you must putt on the green unless it’s longer than 75 feet rule. There’s no way to actually enforce that. Someone could just chip from 50 feet at any time if they wanted to. The only thing that stops it is the threat of someone happening to ghost you and reporting it. There’s nothing in the API that indicates to the admins that someone cheated, and no way in a society to force putter on the green. There are of course acceptable times where you can chip/flop from inside 75, so it could never be done. Adding another element that’s an honor thing  like the splash, just wouldn’t work imo.

I have only argued on two changes on TST; remove the putting marker in TGC 2019, and aim marker in PGA 2k21. This is a society setting so no honor is needed. The other thing I have argued, is to only play real courses - and this is really easy to do. I have never argued to include honor rules in TST. I know hammers1man have been argueing on no out of turn ghosts - but this is something that is impossible to force and detect.

booze : how much of an aid do you find the aim marker?
From my point of view, it is first an eye sore. I played some tournaments in TST in TGC 2019 and found I was really annoyed by the marker. In TGC 2019 the marker helped in aiming, and more important help in distance control, most important on downhill putts. So it was imo an aid in TGC 2019. I have not played with it in PGA 2k21 - so I do not know how much of an aid it is - but it should help in aiming, and since it is no longer just for putting, this is for all shots. It also helps set the intended distance, combine with haptic feedback, and you get an aid in where to stop your partial shots. I do not think the aim marker helps in distance control on putting the same it did in TGC 2019, so you need the haptic feedback or power meter to get the aid.

I also find it interesting that they have the putting rule. When they have this rule that is a honor rule and relies on ghosts to detect "cheating", they could add no splash outside bunkers, or no chipping from bunkers as well. I also do not agree on the rule itself. Following USE spirit - you should ask "would it be realistic to putt, chip or flop this shot?". I had a 147 feet putt on this weeks tournament at Losby - uphill by 1-2 feet. Green speed 134 feet - so I knew a putt would end up way too short even on max. In real life, I would have used a putter on that 48 yard shot. In this game - impossible to get it close. So I couldn't do the realistic shot, and needed to pitch the shot (which I failed at and it went too far). But if I would be able to putt, with faster green speeds - I would putt from 147 feet.

Aim marker has never done much at all for me, id be fine with it being removed.The only use I’ve ever found for it really was being able to move it forward or back so you can better see the behind the hole camera on putts. It’s annoying to be too close or too far away to get a good look.  I know you can switch clubs and try to spin the camera around, but it’s really not the same thing. Other than that, I really don’t use it. I’ve always played in multiple societies this game and last that have it off and never thought it made things any difference in difficulty for me compared to TST. On partial chips and splashes, outside of USE, I almost always move the marker out to full distance so I’m not even using the marker anyway!  I just short swing at full speed like the last game. I would say how I play those is probably not the norm though, I could definitely see people using the slowed swing in combo with haptic as an aid. So in a nutshell, if this game could get their damn cameras right I’d be 100% for it being removed in TST.

I can see your point about how if they are already doing one “ghost enforced” honor rule, then why not another. I don’t know, it just seems like too much. I think the putting rule is pretty well accepted and used across many societies outside of TGCT, but this wouldn’t be as much because of the greatly increased difficulty (which again goes back to the “this is too hard, this sucks” logic of most players). So I think there would be a much larger amount of rule breakers as compared to putting...just my opinion, could be wrong. I could see someone partial pitching 10 yards short of the green then immediately saying “f this” and splashing lol. Also, many players are not forum users. So that would probably be another reason to keep the honor rules to a bare minimum. I recall last year clicking on the TST forum for the first time and coming across a completely unknown rule in a thread that you aren’t supposed to use the raised putting camera on the tee. I would bet 90% of players have no clue that exists or if they do, don’t follow it. I was unknowingly breaking it for months lol

Hmmm wait, going back to the topic of the camera, now that I think about it I bet even with it off you could pull in or move back the imaginary marker and get a better camera view on the green. I noticed when I was doing partial pitches here, that the marker still seems to exist even though it’s off. If I hold down the aim stick for a few seconds, it ends up slowing the swing down. So it must be  there, you just can’t see it. That’s something I never knew until very recently.

[hammers1man]

Moving Matt's RGT to TGCTours is what killed it's soul in my view, not sure if any here played that independent tour apart from Robert. But then it was all about numbers and most don't want real sim. Why ban scout cam when you can have 3 ghost balls telling you where to aim your tee shot, or better still help give you a read on your putt by playing out of turn.
Let's not kid ourselves the S in TST is anything but sim far from it. I gave TST a go this season but have no interest in anything TGCTours anymore. As Booze mentioned the word NICHE and that is where sim golf excels because with that you have people that care HOW THEY PLAY THE GAME not just how low they score. You couldn't police 150 players but you don't need to here with the 20 odd we have, I prefer the close knit society with players I can trust to police themselves than a tour where you can't have a simple rule NO GHOST BALLS in place because players might cheat. I love golf and play a 40 member society irl and trust everyone of those members and I feel the same here, I trust all our members. Sim golf suits a small community and just check out our tournament thread pages, 20 members here giving 3 times more pages of feedback than TST tournament threads of 150 players.

[andersnm]

Dec 15, 2020 21:40:50 GMT booze said:

Dec 15, 2020 20:13:58 GMT andersnm said:

I have only argued on two changes on TST; remove the putting marker in TGC 2019, and aim marker in PGA 2k21. This is a society setting so no honor is needed. The other thing I have argued, is to only play real courses - and this is really easy to do. I have never argued to include honor rules in TST. I know hammers1man have been argueing on no out of turn ghosts - but this is something that is impossible to force and detect.

booze : how much of an aid do you find the aim marker?
From my point of view, it is first an eye sore. I played some tournaments in TST in TGC 2019 and found I was really annoyed by the marker. In TGC 2019 the marker helped in aiming, and more important help in distance control, most important on downhill putts. So it was imo an aid in TGC 2019. I have not played with it in PGA 2k21 - so I do not know how much of an aid it is - but it should help in aiming, and since it is no longer just for putting, this is for all shots. It also helps set the intended distance, combine with haptic feedback, and you get an aid in where to stop your partial shots. I do not think the aim marker helps in distance control on putting the same it did in TGC 2019, so you need the haptic feedback or power meter to get the aid.

I also find it interesting that they have the putting rule. When they have this rule that is a honor rule and relies on ghosts to detect "cheating", they could add no splash outside bunkers, or no chipping from bunkers as well. I also do not agree on the rule itself. Following USE spirit - you should ask "would it be realistic to putt, chip or flop this shot?". I had a 147 feet putt on this weeks tournament at Losby - uphill by 1-2 feet. Green speed 134 feet - so I knew a putt would end up way too short even on max. In real life, I would have used a putter on that 48 yard shot. In this game - impossible to get it close. So I couldn't do the realistic shot, and needed to pitch the shot (which I failed at and it went too far). But if I would be able to putt, with faster green speeds - I would putt from 147 feet.

Aim marker has never done much at all for me, id be fine with it being removed.The only use I’ve ever found for it really was being able to move it forward or back so you can better see the behind the hole camera on putts. It’s annoying to be too close or too far away to get a good look.  I know you can switch clubs and try to spin the camera around, but it’s really not the same thing. Other than that, I really don’t use it. I’ve always played in multiple societies this game and last that have it off and never thought it made things any difference in difficulty for me compared to TST. On partial chips and splashes, outside of USE, I almost always move the marker out to full distance so I’m not even using the marker anyway!  I just short swing at full speed like the last game. I would say how I play those is probably not the norm though, I could definitely see people using the slowed swing in combo with haptic as an aid. So in a nutshell, if this game could get their damn cameras right I’d be 100% for it being removed in TST.

I can see your point about how if they are already doing one “ghost enforced” honor rule, then why not another. I don’t know, it just seems like too much. I think the putting rule is pretty well accepted and used across many societies outside of TGCT, but this wouldn’t be as much because of the greatly increased difficulty (which again goes back to the “this is too hard, this sucks” logic of most players). So I think there would be a much larger amount of rule breakers as compared to putting...just my opinion, could be wrong. I could see someone partial pitching 10 yards short of the green then immediately saying “f this” and splashing lol. Also, many players are not forum users. So that would probably be another reason to keep the honor rules to a bare minimum. I recall last year clicking on the TST forum for the first time and coming across a completely unknown rule in a thread that you aren’t supposed to use the raised putting camera on the tee. I would bet 90% of players have no clue that exists or if they do, don’t follow it. I was unknowingly breaking it for months lol

Hmmm wait, going back to the topic of the camera, now that I think about it I bet even with it off you could pull in or move back the imaginary marker and get a better camera view on the green. I noticed when I was doing partial pitches here, that the marker still seems to exist even though it’s off. If I hold down the aim stick for a few seconds, it ends up slowing the swing down. So it must be  there, you just can’t see it. That’s something I never knew until very recently.

I read the arguments for the aim marker - and suffice to say that I disagree (walk the green). But yeah, I agree that I would want a proper walk cam - and not only near the green.

I have tried to play a bit without the flag marker, and I think I will try to see if I can get used to it because that is also an eye sore. I don't know if anyone else plays without the flag marker?

And yes, the putting rule is for the entire TGC Tours if I am not mistaken, and to be honest - I don't understand why they have that rule. It would be easier for them to have no honesty rules, and I don't understand the reasoning behind 75 feet as a static limit with the exception on putting line which is open for interpretation (I think I have read some discussion on this rule some times on very severe slopes).

[wimigbg]

Can we use the flag marker? I don't want to anyway. And I tried a few weeks at TST and the aim marker was soooo annoying and in the way. And I refuse to hit fairway/rough splashes. Not going back, I'm very happy here.

[andersnm]

Dec 16, 2020 21:34:39 GMT wimigbg said:

Can we use the flag marker? I don't want to anyway. And I tried a few weeks at TST and the aim marker was soooo annoying and in the way. And I refuse to hit fairway/rough splashes. Not going back, I'm very happy here.

Yes, flag marker is optional.

[Deleted]

Dec 16, 2020 21:41:38 GMT andersnm said:

Dec 16, 2020 21:34:39 GMT wimigbg said:

Can we use the flag marker? I don't want to anyway. And I tried a few weeks at TST and the aim marker was soooo annoying and in the way. And I refuse to hit fairway/rough splashes. Not going back, I'm very happy here.

Yes, flag marker is optional.

Yeah been playing with everything off since the beginning. Besides wind and the top left and right corners of my screen for info on score and clubs/distance. It's interesting at times to line myself up along with using the overhead yardage to find the right lines by looking at certain trees. And of course trying to find the flag  If I could turn off the bottom right "help" info I would. I try playing all the sports game I play as one hardcore sim settings and clean screen as possible. 👍

[Deleted]

But yes agree with everyone here and what's been mentioned so far. I can't stop playing USE for anything and everything. When on Xbox had a few matches during the week. And whenever someone decided to use the splash, I'd be yelling c'mon! It is waaaay easier. There has been a huge learning curve for the pitch shot. Along with using all aspects of shot shaper - draws, fades, flighted shots and getting shots to zip back or check. When you get it right it's so rewarding. Paul has said it numerous times, best experience you can get from a golf video game when played the right way.

[charles56]

I dont use the flag marker. Never have. The only thing i have turned on is the 'trackman'-ball tracer from the tee as i sometimes lose the ball in flight. But that's about it. Since playing USE i've totally immersed myself in the USE rules: only splash from bunkers, use more 50/60% pitches and 70% flops around greens. Chipping has always been a strong part of my game (although not anymore from bunkers obviously) so i needed to learn new shots. I found out that most players do not want to go beyond the 'dart golf' mode. All aids on and blast away. Most do not want to learn, do not want to put in the extra time and effort. Do not want to be challenged. Do not want to experience a real golf feel. Do not want all the frusts, hassles and exasperations that go with it. They only want to 'enjoy' and 'relax'. And thats okay with me as to each his own. It explains why so few want to go deeper and remain gliding around on their inflatable.

[wimigbg]

Apr 24, 2021 7:11:18 GMT charles56 said:

I dont use the flag marker. Never have. The only thing i have turned on is the 'trackman'-ball tracer from the tee as i sometimes lose the ball in flight. But that's about it. Since playing USE i've totally immersed myself in the USE rules: only splash from bunkers, use more 50/60% pitches and 70% flops around greens. Chipping has always been a strong part of my game (although not anymore from bunkers obviously) so i needed to learn new shots. I found out that most players do not want to go beyond the 'dart golf' mode. All aids on and blast away. Most do not want to learn, do not want to put in the extra time and effort. Do not want to be challenged. Do not want to experience a real golf feel. Do not want all the frusts, hassles and exasperations that go with it. They only want to 'enjoy' and 'relax'. And thats okay with me as to each his own. It explains why so few want to go deeper and remain gliding around on their inflatable.

I also have the ball tracer. Have tried without and I see maybe 1 in 3 and would take away a whole lot of joy.