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Post by hammers1man on Feb 1, 2021 12:48:42 GMT
Well SMH. All this time I have never bothered using that stuff cause I thought it was not allowed. I'll have to think about continuing to participate now. If you're worried that it makes the game less challenging I would argue the opposite, using it actually makes it harder to pull off the shot that's why it is so much better than TGC2019 and why I don't use it that much. It is nice to be able to play proper draws and fades that start outside inside the target and curve back towards it. |
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Post by artvandelay on Feb 1, 2021 13:32:41 GMT
Well SMH. All this time I have never bothered using that stuff cause I thought it was not allowed. I'll have to think about continuing to participate now. If you're worried that it makes the game less challenging I would argue the opposite, using it actually makes it harder to pull off the shot that's why it is so much better than TGC2019 and why I don't use it that much. It is nice to be able to play proper draws and fades that start outside inside the target and curve back towards it. I think it is more challenging to try and hit proper draws and fades with the tempo of your swing alone, IMO that is more like real golf. |
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Post by hammers1man on Feb 1, 2021 13:45:06 GMT
If you're worried that it makes the game less challenging I would argue the opposite, using it actually makes it harder to pull off the shot that's why it is so much better than TGC2019 and why I don't use it that much. It is nice to be able to play proper draws and fades that start outside inside the target and curve back towards it. I think it is more challenging to try and hit proper draws and fades with the tempo of your swing alone, IMO that is more like real golf. In real life your tempo should be the same for all your full shots, poor tempo is one that changes shot to shot. I feel differently than others but I feel we should be playing for good tempo, inside the tempo box. Irl you adjust your stance for draw and fade as you do here with the shot shaper, you set up for a draw or fade and try to hit a good tempo, that feels like golf to me. Aiming right and slamming the stick faster for a hook drive is not a good golf mechanic imo but seems to work successfully in this game . We don't prohibit that so why prohibit actually setting up a draw or fade with true shot, much more to go wrong if timing is off and more of a challenge. |
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Post by andersnm on Feb 1, 2021 14:02:36 GMT
If you're worried that it makes the game less challenging I would argue the opposite, using it actually makes it harder to pull off the shot that's why it is so much better than TGC2019 and why I don't use it that much. It is nice to be able to play proper draws and fades that start outside inside the target and curve back towards it. I think it is more challenging to try and hit proper draws and fades with the tempo of your swing alone, IMO that is more like real golf. No, as Paul said - you do not alter tempo at all in real life. You want consistent tempo. There are two main ways to draw or fade a ball - and to be clear, we all draw or fade the ball to a degree on every single shot - we never hit it straight as there always will be some sidespin on the ball. The main way to go about it, is to hit more inside-out or outside-in in the swingplane. You do not change your stance or make any other funny stuff. I would love if HB had implemented the swing so we could do that - ie. perfect tempo is always on target, then the swingplane would determine sidespin so you could swing inside-out or outside-in in order to draw or fade the ball. HB has not done this, so there is no way we can do this other than manipulate tempo - which is unrealistic. The other way is to change your set up so you grip your club open or closed. When you do this, you need to also change your feet stance so the clubface aim at target, not your feets. And, you can in real life do a combination of both these things, to futher make huge slices or hooks. |
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Post by andersnm on Feb 1, 2021 14:12:59 GMT
I think it is more challenging to try and hit proper draws and fades with the tempo of your swing alone, IMO that is more like real golf. In real life your tempo should be the same for all your full shots, poor tempo is one that changes shot to shot. I feel differently than others but I feel we should be playing for good tempo, inside the tempo box. Irl you adjust your stance for draw and fade as you do here with the shot shaper, you set up for a draw or fade and try to hit a good tempo, that feels like golf to me. Aiming right and slamming the stick faster for a hook drive is not a good golf mechanic imo but seems to work successfully in this game . We don't prohibit that so why prohibit actually setting up a draw or fade with true shot, much more to go wrong if timing is off and more of a challenge. I agree completely that it is not realistic to aim right and changing tempo in order to draw a ball. So I use the True Shot if I want a draw or a fade. I would say the realistic thing is to have consistent tempo. If your tendency is a draw or a fade, pull or a push, I see no problem in compensating for that - if that is how it is that day. I tend to have my ball go slightly left as a tendency in the game, so I compensate a little for that - but it is not huge. I play mostly without swing feedback as I see on the shot what is going on. However, I had an issue with huge pulls a time ago, and I turned back the swing-feedback then just to see how bad it was and how to correct it. I did have to re-calibrate my swing as I also had a fast tendency as well. And I needed to change my grip on the controller slightly in order to straighten the swingplane. I worked on that on the driving range, and I once again play without the feedback. I would highly recommend turning off the swing feedback. I also play without the flag-marker - and I also do not turn it on even if I can't see the flag. I use other land marks to get my aim from the yard-book. I highly recommend turning that off as well. For the most realistic experience, none of these things is realistic on the course. To have the feedback on the range is okay, as you can say you practice with a lanuch monitor, trackman etc - but on the course, you do not have that. |
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Post by hammers1man on Feb 1, 2021 14:30:31 GMT
In real life your tempo should be the same for all your full shots, poor tempo is one that changes shot to shot. I feel differently than others but I feel we should be playing for good tempo, inside the tempo box. Irl you adjust your stance for draw and fade as you do here with the shot shaper, you set up for a draw or fade and try to hit a good tempo, that feels like golf to me. Aiming right and slamming the stick faster for a hook drive is not a good golf mechanic imo but seems to work successfully in this game . We don't prohibit that so why prohibit actually setting up a draw or fade with true shot, much more to go wrong if timing is off and more of a challenge. I agree completely that it is not realistic to aim right and changing tempo in order to draw a ball. So I use the True Shot if I want a draw or a fade. I would say the realistic thing is to have consistent tempo. If your tendency is a draw or a fade, pull or a push, I see no problem in compensating for that - if that is how it is that day. I tend to have my ball go slightly left as a tendency in the game, so I compensate a little for that - but it is not huge. I play mostly without swing feedback as I see on the shot what is going on. However, I had an issue with huge pulls a time ago, and I turned back the swing-feedback then just to see how bad it was and how to correct it. I did have to re-calibrate my swing as I also had a fast tendency as well. And I needed to change my grip on the controller slightly in order to straighten the swingplane. I worked on that on the driving range, and I once again play without the feedback. I would highly recommend turning off the swing feedback. I also play without the flag-marker - and I also do not turn it on even if I can't see the flag. I use other land marks to get my aim from the yard-book. I highly recommend turning that off as well. For the most realistic experience, none of these things is realistic on the course. To have the feedback on the range is okay, as you can say you practice with a lanuch monitor, trackman etc - but on the course, you do not have that. I agree with the flagstick, I have that turned off. I think being able to elevate a putter to get a better view as opposed to walking the course irl is a good compromise with flag marker off. From now on I am going back to feedback off. Do you turn distance feedback off also Anders? |
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Post by andersnm on Feb 1, 2021 14:53:00 GMT
I agree completely that it is not realistic to aim right and changing tempo in order to draw a ball. So I use the True Shot if I want a draw or a fade. I would say the realistic thing is to have consistent tempo. If your tendency is a draw or a fade, pull or a push, I see no problem in compensating for that - if that is how it is that day. I tend to have my ball go slightly left as a tendency in the game, so I compensate a little for that - but it is not huge. I play mostly without swing feedback as I see on the shot what is going on. However, I had an issue with huge pulls a time ago, and I turned back the swing-feedback then just to see how bad it was and how to correct it. I did have to re-calibrate my swing as I also had a fast tendency as well. And I needed to change my grip on the controller slightly in order to straighten the swingplane. I worked on that on the driving range, and I once again play without the feedback. I would highly recommend turning off the swing feedback. I also play without the flag-marker - and I also do not turn it on even if I can't see the flag. I use other land marks to get my aim from the yard-book. I highly recommend turning that off as well. For the most realistic experience, none of these things is realistic on the course. To have the feedback on the range is okay, as you can say you practice with a lanuch monitor, trackman etc - but on the course, you do not have that. I agree with the flagstick, I have that turned off. I think being able to elevate a putter to get a better view as opposed to walking the course irl is a good compromise with flag marker off. From now on I am going back to feedback off. Do you turn distance feedback off also Anders? I've had the distance feedback on, but I think I will change that and turn it off. You don't need a putter to elevate Paul - you can do that with every club. I use the elevated view on putting (much easier to judge backstroke length) or if I have some bushes etc so I don't see my golfer, but I rarely use it to view things. I use the overhead yard-book, and then I can find things to aim that I see with my golfer. For example on a blind tee shot, I can see how the tee box lines up to where I want to aim as an example. Or I can use bushes and other things close. |
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Post by paddyjk19 on Feb 1, 2021 15:17:32 GMT
I can see what Art is saying as I prefer to use tempo to leak the ball right to left or sometimes to get a few extra yards out of an iron I'll aim right and swing a bit faster. To say this isn't like real life isn't TOTALLY correct, I'll sometimes hit a little hook with an iron if I'm looking to eek out a couple of extra yards, I'll also swing a little harder (faster) and sometimes I'll cut across it a little to hit a bit of a fade if I'm trying to take a little off the shot. I'll also hit this shot at around 85% tempo. There's a lot of instructors these days that teach keeping your swing length the same and varying tempo to add / subtract 5 yards off scoring and iron shots. The theory is that you only have one variable which is tempo whilst if you try to vary swing length it's unlikely to hit an exact length and keep your tempo exactly the same each time.
I therefore feel that bleeding shots with intentional (grey or small red) slows is a skill as is hitting a red fast without going too fast. Hitting a red fast, a red slow or a perfect on demand requires the exact same amount of skill in my opinion. I predominantly aim for perfects unless I'm between clubs and I very rarely hit a perfect. Much more so now I play on PC I err towards a fast or a slow because it's next to impossible for me to hit perfects with a very sensitive controller like Xbox Elite2.
I see everybody's point but to say top players don't use tempo to alter ball flight isn't wholly correct, a faster tempo is more synonymous with rolling the club over (draw / hook) whilst fades tend to be more associated with taking something off the shot (slower / softer).
The only anomaly to that is the power fade off the tee that players like DJ and Koepka favour but this is more aggressive body slow hands to stable the clubface and prevent clubface roll.
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Post by hammers1man on Feb 1, 2021 15:56:02 GMT
I can see what Art is saying as I prefer to use tempo to leak the ball right to left or sometimes to get a few extra yards out of an iron I'll aim right and swing a bit faster. To say this isn't like real life isn't TOTALLY correct, I'll sometimes hit a little hook with an iron if I'm looking to eek out a couple of extra yards, I'll also swing a little harder (faster) and sometimes I'll cut across it a little to hit a bit of a fade if I'm trying to take a little off the shot. I'll also hit this shot at around 85% tempo. There's a lot of instructors these days that teach keeping your swing length the same and varying tempo to add / subtract 5 yards off scoring and iron shots. The theory is that you only have one variable which is tempo whilst if you try to vary swing length it's unlikely to hit an exact length and keep your tempo exactly the same each time. I therefore feel that bleeding shots with intentional (grey or small red) slows is a skill as is hitting a red fast without going too fast. Hitting a red fast, a red slow or a perfect on demand requires the exact same amount of skill in my opinion. I predominantly aim for perfects unless I'm between clubs and I very rarely hit a perfect. Much more so now I play on PC I err towards a fast or a slow because it's next to impossible for me to hit perfects with a very sensitive controller like Xbox Elite2. I see everybody's point but to say top players don't use tempo to alter ball flight isn't wholly correct, a faster tempo is more synonymous with rolling the club over (draw / hook) whilst fades tend to be more associated with taking something off the shot (slower / softer). The only anomaly to that is the power fade off the tee that players like DJ and Koepka favour but this is more aggressive body slow hands to stable the clubface and prevent clubface roll. Ok lets say the tempo in this game is actually clubface angle on impact from the game's downswing only not actually real tempo (which is a ratio of backswing to downswing timings irl, the rhythm of the swing) so we can manipulate the clubface by swinging position on impact by downswinging faster or slower . Why is it then wrong to use the shot shaper to set up a draw or fade pre shot?, I actually didn't like the fact that we couldn't set up for draw and fade shots in tgc2019, it was one thing that I wanted to keep from the start of USE when it was a PC only society. The shot shaper is massively improved for 2K21 and the tighter tempo improves it even more, it's the method I like to use to work the ball in the game. |
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Post by andersnm on Feb 1, 2021 15:58:48 GMT
I can see what Art is saying as I prefer to use tempo to leak the ball right to left or sometimes to get a few extra yards out of an iron I'll aim right and swing a bit faster. To say this isn't like real life isn't TOTALLY correct, I'll sometimes hit a little hook with an iron if I'm looking to eek out a couple of extra yards, I'll also swing a little harder (faster) and sometimes I'll cut across it a little to hit a bit of a fade if I'm trying to take a little off the shot. I'll also hit this shot at around 85% tempo. There's a lot of instructors these days that teach keeping your swing length the same and varying tempo to add / subtract 5 yards off scoring and iron shots. The theory is that you only have one variable which is tempo whilst if you try to vary swing length it's unlikely to hit an exact length and keep your tempo exactly the same each time. I therefore feel that bleeding shots with intentional (grey or small red) slows is a skill as is hitting a red fast without going too fast. Hitting a red fast, a red slow or a perfect on demand requires the exact same amount of skill in my opinion. I predominantly aim for perfects unless I'm between clubs and I very rarely hit a perfect. Much more so now I play on PC I err towards a fast or a slow because it's next to impossible for me to hit perfects with a very sensitive controller like Xbox Elite2. I see everybody's point but to say top players don't use tempo to alter ball flight isn't wholly correct, a faster tempo is more synonymous with rolling the club over (draw / hook) whilst fades tend to be more associated with taking something off the shot (slower / softer). The only anomaly to that is the power fade off the tee that players like DJ and Koepka favour but this is more aggressive body slow hands to stable the clubface and prevent clubface roll. I would argue you are not changing your tempo, but your effort to increase or decrease swing speed Patrick. Tempo - as in backswing to downswing transition ratio will stay the same in order to hit the ball with good ball contact. If you swing faster speed, it can screw up on tempo and you can as you say result in a hook - but also a slice actually. But also mess with ball contact. I think the way they have implemented tempo is just fine - a bit fast, and you close the clubface too soon, a bit slow, and you have not closed the clubface square on impact. What I would like, is to be able to swing a swingplane inside-out, and get a draw on target with good tempo. I also think that when training to increase swing speed, you may need to get used to a slightly different tempo - but this is not mandatory. So when you say instructors teach you to vary tempo, I think you are talking of varying swing speed. In my experience with golf it is much better to vary with backswing length and keep the effort the same. This is what Phil Mickelson teach. From what I have seen time and time again, is that the ball contact don't get consistent if you mess with effort and swing speed for the majority. That said - there is ofcourse golfers that are good at swinging with different speed. The timing to get a club to square perfectly at impact is very difficult. So messing with this imo is nothing you want to do unless you have practiced it extensively. For me, it is much better to control distance with backswing length and keep effort the same. So it is important to see the difference in swing speed and tempo. Tempo in the game is not different swing speed, but if you have a fast or slow transition leading to a clubhead hitting the ball open or closed on impact. You can swing with the same speed, and hit the ball open or closed. Yes, I think you are more likely to close it if you overswing and try to swing faster than you are used to - but I have also seen so many golfers that gets huge slices when they try too hard to swing fast. I have never heard of anyone changing tempo in order to draw or fade the ball or have distance control that way. Rolling of the hands is an aspect I do not think the game has ever tried to implement - and it gets very technical. I actually am more aware of rolling of the wrists in Disc Golf - but I do not see that as a tempo thing at all. Do you vary how you roll your hands Patrick? I certainly try not to do that but stay consistent. If I want to hit an open or closed clubface, I change my grip at address. "Power fade" is a term I do not like at all. If DJ and Koepka could hit with no sidespin, they would increase distance. So the fade is not a good thing - but it is the way they prefer to swing. I know many good players find it easier to control a fade compared to a draw and thus not get those big hooks that is so punishing. As for skill in the game - I know there has been a hot debate on the red fast. Fact is, misses on the red fast are bigger than if you miss by the same amount (left and right) in the grey area. Which means that it is harder to be consistent if you are constantly on the red fast. I think the reason many players prefer a red fast off the tee - is the added distance in the game. I have watched a little bit on very good TST players on twitch - and those that do red fast on all shots, also approaches miss more than those that have a perfect/grey area approach. On a tee shot, you have more error on a wide fairway, so you get a little extra distance on a red fast, and on the approach many change to a perfect tempo. I know some fear the distance loss on a red slow, but from what I've seen, the very good players have so much control that it is very rare (should play Legend swing difficulty, and that may also be too easy for some). |
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Post by andersnm on Feb 1, 2021 16:04:06 GMT
I can see what Art is saying as I prefer to use tempo to leak the ball right to left or sometimes to get a few extra yards out of an iron I'll aim right and swing a bit faster. To say this isn't like real life isn't TOTALLY correct, I'll sometimes hit a little hook with an iron if I'm looking to eek out a couple of extra yards, I'll also swing a little harder (faster) and sometimes I'll cut across it a little to hit a bit of a fade if I'm trying to take a little off the shot. I'll also hit this shot at around 85% tempo. There's a lot of instructors these days that teach keeping your swing length the same and varying tempo to add / subtract 5 yards off scoring and iron shots. The theory is that you only have one variable which is tempo whilst if you try to vary swing length it's unlikely to hit an exact length and keep your tempo exactly the same each time. I therefore feel that bleeding shots with intentional (grey or small red) slows is a skill as is hitting a red fast without going too fast. Hitting a red fast, a red slow or a perfect on demand requires the exact same amount of skill in my opinion. I predominantly aim for perfects unless I'm between clubs and I very rarely hit a perfect. Much more so now I play on PC I err towards a fast or a slow because it's next to impossible for me to hit perfects with a very sensitive controller like Xbox Elite2. I see everybody's point but to say top players don't use tempo to alter ball flight isn't wholly correct, a faster tempo is more synonymous with rolling the club over (draw / hook) whilst fades tend to be more associated with taking something off the shot (slower / softer). The only anomaly to that is the power fade off the tee that players like DJ and Koepka favour but this is more aggressive body slow hands to stable the clubface and prevent clubface roll. Ok lets say the tempo in this game is actually clubface angle on impact from the game's downswing only not actually real tempo (which is a ratio of backswing to downswing timings irl, the rhythm of the swing) so we can manipulate the clubface by swinging position on impact by downswinging faster or slower . Why is it then wrong to use the shot shaper to set up a draw or fade pre shot?, I actually didn't like the fact that we couldn't set up for draw and fade shots in tgc2019, it was one thing that I wanted to keep from the start of USE when it was a PC only society. The shot shaper is massively improved for 2K21 and the tighter tempo improves it even more, it's the method I like to use to work the ball in the game. Agree. When you change to draw or fade in the True Shot - the golfer avatar changes the stance to stand more open or closed to how you aim - and this represent the setup of opening or closing the clubface when you grip the club. |
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Post by hammers1man on Feb 1, 2021 16:14:29 GMT
Ok lets say the tempo in this game is actually clubface angle on impact from the game's downswing only not actually real tempo (which is a ratio of backswing to downswing timings irl, the rhythm of the swing) so we can manipulate the clubface by swinging position on impact by downswinging faster or slower . Why is it then wrong to use the shot shaper to set up a draw or fade pre shot?, I actually didn't like the fact that we couldn't set up for draw and fade shots in tgc2019, it was one thing that I wanted to keep from the start of USE when it was a PC only society. The shot shaper is massively improved for 2K21 and the tighter tempo improves it even more, it's the method I like to use to work the ball in the game. Agree. When you change to draw or fade in the True Shot - the golfer avatar changes the stance to stand more open or closed to how you aim - and this represent the setup of opening or closing the clubface when you grip the club. It's a good game mechanic, the more fade or slice and you can also turn it into a hook or slice the harder the shot to pull off as the tempo box and swing plane rectangle narrow. |
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Post by paddyjk19 on Feb 1, 2021 16:23:43 GMT
I can see what Art is saying as I prefer to use tempo to leak the ball right to left or sometimes to get a few extra yards out of an iron I'll aim right and swing a bit faster. To say this isn't like real life isn't TOTALLY correct, I'll sometimes hit a little hook with an iron if I'm looking to eek out a couple of extra yards, I'll also swing a little harder (faster) and sometimes I'll cut across it a little to hit a bit of a fade if I'm trying to take a little off the shot. I'll also hit this shot at around 85% tempo. There's a lot of instructors these days that teach keeping your swing length the same and varying tempo to add / subtract 5 yards off scoring and iron shots. The theory is that you only have one variable which is tempo whilst if you try to vary swing length it's unlikely to hit an exact length and keep your tempo exactly the same each time. I therefore feel that bleeding shots with intentional (grey or small red) slows is a skill as is hitting a red fast without going too fast. Hitting a red fast, a red slow or a perfect on demand requires the exact same amount of skill in my opinion. I predominantly aim for perfects unless I'm between clubs and I very rarely hit a perfect. Much more so now I play on PC I err towards a fast or a slow because it's next to impossible for me to hit perfects with a very sensitive controller like Xbox Elite2. I see everybody's point but to say top players don't use tempo to alter ball flight isn't wholly correct, a faster tempo is more synonymous with rolling the club over (draw / hook) whilst fades tend to be more associated with taking something off the shot (slower / softer). The only anomaly to that is the power fade off the tee that players like DJ and Koepka favour but this is more aggressive body slow hands to stable the clubface and prevent clubface roll. Ok lets say the tempo in this game is actually clubface angle on impact from the game's downswing only not actually real tempo (which is a ratio of backswing to downswing timings irl, the rhythm of the swing) so we can manipulate the clubface by swinging position on impact by downswinging faster or slower . Why is it then wrong to use the shot shaper to set up a draw or fade pre shot?, I actually didn't like the fact that we couldn't set up for draw and fade shots in tgc2019, it was one thing that I wanted to keep from the start of USE when it was a PC only society. The shot shaper is massively improved for 2K21 and the tighter tempo improves it even more, it's the method I like to use to work the ball in the game. I actually think both are fine, doing it with tempo is more of a "feel method" (manipulating with hands) whilst the shot shaper is more of a scientific approach by altering setup but keeping tempo. I'm just fighting the corner of the tempo players! I get great satisfaction by just tweaking my shots 5 yards based on tempo, it also devastates when I aim for a slow leak and hit a fast double cross! for me it's something I love when I get it right which isn;t that often! I think the fun thing is that everyone has their own approaches and we should continue to encourage that - I don't think there is any advantage in using the shot shaper and I don't think there is any advantage to playing for fasts or slows, both have their positives and negatives - the end result is that we are shooting realistic scores which is great! |
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Post by hammers1man on Feb 1, 2021 16:31:37 GMT
It is actually harder to set up for a draw with true shot and pull it off than aiming right and hitting a fast to hit a good drive. So using the shot shaper to play a draw and fade is not taking the challenge away from playing here on USE, I think you should give it a try artvandelay. The shot shaper in the game is massively improved. |
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Post by hammers1man on Feb 1, 2021 16:35:51 GMT
Ok lets say the tempo in this game is actually clubface angle on impact from the game's downswing only not actually real tempo (which is a ratio of backswing to downswing timings irl, the rhythm of the swing) so we can manipulate the clubface by swinging position on impact by downswinging faster or slower . Why is it then wrong to use the shot shaper to set up a draw or fade pre shot?, I actually didn't like the fact that we couldn't set up for draw and fade shots in tgc2019, it was one thing that I wanted to keep from the start of USE when it was a PC only society. The shot shaper is massively improved for 2K21 and the tighter tempo improves it even more, it's the method I like to use to work the ball in the game. I actually think both are fine, doing it with tempo is more of a "feel method" (manipulating with hands) whilst the shot shaper is more of a scientific approach by altering setup but keeping tempo. I'm just fighting the corner of the tempo players! I get great satisfaction by just tweaking my shots 5 yards based on tempo, it also devastates when I aim for a slow leak and hit a fast double cross! for me it's something I love when I get it right which isn;t that often! I think the fun thing is that everyone has their own approaches and we should continue to encourage that - I don't think there is any advantage in using the shot shaper and I don't think there is any advantage to playing for fasts or slows, both have their positives and negatives - the end result is that we are shooting realistic scores which is great! I am actualy really happy with the setup and scores we are getting now. Everyone is getting better and some have fantastic rounds and tournaments like artvandelay last week. |
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